HELP! pH drop after using R.O. water for the first time in 30% water change

[miwu]

Hmm that's interesting. Yeah, try removing the cholla wood and see if that helps. Maybe there's even something stuck in there that's rotting?

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[Mamashack]

One of the cholla logs is completely hollow but the other does appear to be full of stuff that could be the problem - anyway they've both gone now so will keep an eye on the parameters and my fingers crossed!

[chibikaie]

I know a lot of people say not to vacuum substrate with shrimp - but you might also want to do it to a small section to see if waste is building up. I know I'm always surprised by how much junk accumulates.

[Mamashack]

Do you mean a surface vacuum or a deep one? I'll think about that if removing the cholla wood doesn't have any impact, chibikaie.

[chibikaie]

Well, I'd be suspicious of the stuffed log too. There could have been something in there releasing who knows what.

Probably start gentle? Seems your shrimp are verrrry sensitive.

[Mamashack]

Well, I'd be suspicious of the stuffed log too. There could have been something in there releasing who knows what.

Probably start gentle? Seems your shrimp are verrrry sensitive.

Seems so altho thankfully the majority have survived my recent, seemingly mad flirtation with R.O water.

I think the stuff inside one of the logs is actually part of the log itself, but the other one is completely hollow so maybe is older and more solid than the "stuffed" one. Whatever it is, they are both out of the tank now. 

It's looking so bare in there after the previous removal of leaf litter and now the cholla logs which has also removed most of the hiding places at the same time.

The only things left in there are the substrate, a small square of US fissidens and 2 moss-balls and some pebbles. I'll maybe need to look out for some non-organic hiding places.

I've previously tried plants but they melt even the floating ones such as Limnobium laevigatum and Riccia fluitans - neither of which did well at all. I have green thumbs rather than green fingers it seems!

[Mamashack]

Well I think I may have found the main cause of the ammonia - managed to get some of the "stuff" out the "stuffed" log and it looked like rotting leaf litter. It was so rotted that it looked like soil. I think you call it dirt in the US. There was loads of it and the log was still partially covered in bark that had started to separate so I ripped that off too.

Am doing a little experiment to see if the "dirty" cholla log is giving off ammonia by sticking it in a tub of water and testing it regularly - maybe once a day. I know it won't be scientifically valid but might indicate whether it's safe to put back in the tank at some point.

I've also spotted a few very small snails that must have hitch-hiked on the Riccia and disembarked at some point before I removed it from the tank. They are only 2-3mm/1/8th inch across - would that be big enough for them to cause a waste issue? I've been picking them out and putting them in the betta tank as I find them, but I must have missed a few. These are so small I can hardly get them off the glass without them sinking towards the substrate and disappearing before I can catch them. Will keep trying tho.

 

Sincere thanks to everyone who has offered helpful suggestions in this crisis of my own making!

I hope you will indulge my (hopefully) last few questions as follows

I haven't totally abandoned the idea of R.O water - I just need to learn a lot more about it before I subject the shrimp to more changes.

Have found a source of crushed coral and have ordered some Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ tho I'm not sure how I'd use the coral. I know some people use it in the substrate, but I'd prefer to keep it where I can easily remove it or adjust the quantity if needed. Was thinking about in a bag within a spare filter maybe? The main filter for this tank is quite small and I don't think it would be able to accommodate it without compromising the filtration I think.

Has anyone used it this way? Any tips would be great -  like how much to use to raise pH from low 6's to 7.8 in a 19L tank? Will it even achieve that level of pH? I'd rather use something that's natural and gradual - not interested in the pH adjuster preps - too scared and it's a small tank!

[Soothing Shrimp]

If memory serves correctly, RO should be neutral and have a ph of 7, while the final factor depends in how much CO2 in the air is saturated in the water.

[randy]

If memory serves correctly, RO should be neutral and have a ph of 7, while the final factor depends in how much CO2 in the air is saturated in the water.

And I believe mixing 1 part of RO with 2 parts of tap of PH 7.8, your water will creep back to PH 7.8 given it enough time. That's what happens to my tap anyway (TDS 175, GH 8, KH 5, PH 7.8). It's the KH that will 'stabilize" the PH in my case, with 30% of RO, my KH is diluted to about 3-4, still enough to bring the PH back to where it was buffered to.

[miwu]

Yup, but there's always going to be dissolved CO2 and therefore carbonic acid.

Mamashack, if you're using Salty Shrimp gh/kh+, doesn't that raise the pH as well? I've never used it but I think that's how it works. I've used crushed coral in a tea bag and just tossed it in the tank behind a sponge filter so it doesn't look that bad. Yes, you can use an extra spare filter for it. There's really no way to judge how much to add... I just add a small tea bag worth. It is not as standardized as remineralizer or pH solutions, and I would imagine that the effectiveness changes from batch to batch and may wear out after use.

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[Mamashack]

Thanks SS, randy and miwu.

I haven't received the GH/KH+ yet, miwu - have only got the Bee shrimp GH+ at the moment (an ordering error on my part)

I've tested my R.O water and it's pH 6 or lower. So I've now got the empty filter blowing air thro a 5L bucket of R.O. water and I'll test it at various intervals to see how the pH is doing. It did shift it to 7.0 - 7.2 in about 36 hrs in the 19L tank so hopefully this should be a bit quicker in theory. I'd prefer it closer to 7.5 if I can.

If I can get the pH up this way I would prefer it to adding something to the water, but I'll see how fast I can get this pH up to above 7 or even 7.5 

If not achievable say overnight I might give the crushed coral some more thought. Have got a couple of little pouches that could contain the coral if need be.

Just had a thought would I need to raise the TDS for this to work? At the moment it's pure R.O water bubbling away.

[JamesHe]

Thanks SS, randy and miwu.

I haven't received the GH/KH+ yet, miwu - have only got the Bee shrimp GH+ at the moment (an ordering error on my part)

I've tested my R.O water and it's pH 6 or lower. So I've now got the empty filter blowing air thro a 5L bucket of R.O. water and I'll test it at various intervals to see how the pH is doing. It did shift it to 7.0 - 7.2 in about 36 hrs in the 19L tank so hopefully this should be a bit quicker in theory. I'd prefer it closer to 7.5 if I can.

If I can get the pH up this way I would prefer it to adding something to the water, but I'll see how fast I can get this pH up to above 7 or even 7.5 

If not achievable say overnight I might give the crushed coral some more thought. Have got a couple of little pouches that could contain the coral if need be.

Just had a thought would I need to raise the TDS for this to work? At the moment it's pure R.O water bubbling away.

 

pH of RO water is not very meaningful, as KH near "0", it could change dramatically.

 

in the water pipe with high pressure, lots of CO2 dissolved in water, so new RO water normally has low pH, after gas out, it would be back up to 7.

 

to keep pH stable, you need higher KH values, so it's pretty much determined by overall tank water after you did water change with RO water.

[Mamashack]

Ah didn't think of that, JA. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Mamashack]

I'm at my wits end - truly do not understand what is going on with this tank. The ammonia level is 1-2 ppm this morning. Have done a 10% water change and added some more Tetra Safe Start. Something is knocking out the bacteria. I can't be the bioload as there's only 8 shrimp left and I've removed everything that could rot apart from the US fissidens and moss-balls. They are looking green still.

Looks like it might be time for the gravel clean that chibikaie mentioned.

If these poor remaining shrimp survive it will be a miracle!

[Mamashack]

Well either Tetra Safe Start is miraculously quick or it was a contaminated sample tube I used for the test as it's a resounding bright yellow (0) only 2 hrs after adding the TSS. Hopefully crisis averted!

[Soothing Shrimp]

Safestart is a great product.  I've used it myself multiple times.

[Mamashack]

I hope it was a contaminated test-tube as I can do something about that. 

What is the suggested flow rate for filters in a shrimp tank? 

[Soothing Shrimp]

Lots of people just use air powered sponge filters.

[Mamashack]

That does appear to be the case - I have a small internal filter as I can't stand the sound of air pumps vibrating away. It will have to manage until I set up a Hamburg Mattenfilter which is my ultimate aim tho using the powerhead from one of these little internal ones rather than an air pump. If they made totally silent ones I'd have a few but since they don't exist, I'll have to make do with what I've got. 

[MN Shrimping]

I used a kitchen accessory to help reduce the noise of my air pumps. For the record I use the Tetra whisper pumps, but this should work for other pumps with the same vibration issues. (I would however recommend not getting a fluval air pump. I have one for my 40 gallon & I'm not sure anything can quiet that pump .

Basically, I took the kitchen supply idea from Bulk Reef Supplies (it can be seen here: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/silicone-vibration-silencer-oxo-good-grips.html ). They took kitchen accessories and highlighted their usefulness for aquarium folk.

So I ordered the OXO good grips silicone drying mats. My 2 10 gallon tanks are side-by-side on metal stands & I have 2 pumps in the small gap between them. I put the mat down & the pumps on top. The edges in my case rested up on the stands so it kind of looks like an air pump taco, but anyway.... There's no vibration noise, just the sounds of the bubbles in the water. The only other noise is if a cord gets moved touches the pump, which is an easy fix.

I looked & you should be able to get the product in the UK.

I really like my sponge filters, so maybe this could help you with the noise

[chibikaie]

Safestart does indeed work very quickly. I have had it boot a cycle to completion in 24-48 hours.

That said, again, no idea where the ammonia was. Hopefully now that the bacteria was given a boost, it will no longer be an issue.

[Mamashack]

Thank you both

@MN I did try my gel mouse-mat under the fan overnight and it did reduce the noise significantly. I have an air-pump somewhere that I used with an airstone once in one of the other tanks, but stopped using it as it was too loud and intrusive. I could try it on that and see.

The other problem I have is space outside the tank which is one of the reasons why I went for an internal one in the first place. I do like the idea of the mattenfilter not least because they are virtually maintenance-free and I am inherently lazy, but they are also shrimp/let safe. It would however eat up a lot of shrimp space so maybe when I win the lottery and buy a house that is big enough to accommodate my multi-tank syndrome........

@ chibikaie The only time I've used Safe Start before this tank was when I was setting up a tank too and wanted to speed up the cycle process a bit. It's definitely handy to have around for emergencies like this too! A bit of a shame they have such a short shelf-life. But I shall be sure to make certain I have some standing by again.