Should I Keep it or Return it?

[Euryth]

Soooo...I called myself finally purchasing Salty Shrimp GH/KH+ on amazon and was pretty excited about finally getting it in. My water's pretty soft where I live (4 or 5 drops w/ API kit or 71.6 - 89.5 ppm), but I was more interested in raising the KH slightly from what's present in my two tanks (1-2 dkh & 3-4 dkh respectively). Somehow, I accidentally ordered SS GH+ instead of the GH/KH+, and am contemplating returning it and reordering the SS GH/KH+. I'm definitely not looking forward to the long wait since it's not Amazon Prime eligible, and I've got some Blue Bolt Mischlings coming tomorrow or so that I wanted to be prepared for in case I needed to begin slowly altering params. What's the consensus on what I should do? 

[EricM]

BB dont require KH, 0-1 is where you want to be... GH+ is the right choice for Taiwan bees/caridina.

 

 

[Soothing Shrimp]

Gh/kh is an option for other types of shrimp such as neos.

[Euryth]

Thanks guys, I guess I'll keep it, besides I could return KH to my neo tanks if I use tap water for water changes or top offs. I'm glad I didn't get too antsy & return it too fast lol. 

 

@bostoneric I have been researching other Caridina I've been interested in & have taken note of the params they need, but need a little extra guidance. KH in adequate levels keeps the pH stable (which I thought was desired or vital), so is the need for acidic pH the reason why the KH should be so low?  

[Mr. F]

Definitely keep it. You can use baking soda to raise your KH.

[Mr. F]

2 hours ago, Euryth said:

KH in adequate levels keeps the pH stable (which I thought was desired or vital), so is the need for acidic pH the reason why the KH should be so low?  

Yes. KH buffers to a higher pH.

[Euryth]

16 hours ago, Mr. F said:

Yes. KH buffers to a higher pH.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. For some reason, my understanding had been that an increase in KH did not necessarily increase pH, but would keep the pH stable at the current level lol ??

[EricM]

 

I think you are asking how to keep PH stable without any KH correct?  this is where buffering soils like SL-Aqua Nature soil or similar options come into play. These soils help keep the PH stable without KH.

 

 

[Mr. F]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. For some reason, my understanding had been that an increase in KH did not necessarily increase pH, but would keep the pH stable at the current level lol [emoji28][emoji85]

If you increase the KH properly it will stabilize the pH but usually to higher pH. With your buffering soil, you'll lose that KH pretty quickly. Just rely on the soil to keep the pH stable and low.

[Euryth]

 

5 hours ago, bostoneric said:

 

I think you are asking how to keep PH stable without any KH correct?  this is where buffering soils like SL-Aqua Nature soil or similar options come into play. These soils help keep the PH stable without KH.

 

 

I hadn't thought that far ahead enough to think of having that question answered lol! What properties do those soils have that allow them to buffer without impacting KH at all? What other options would one have similar to these soils?

[EricM]

They actually do effect the KH. They lower it to 0-1. BUT if you are using water they have to work to lower the KH your soil will not long as if you were using water with 0-1kh from the start.

 

There are other options. I've heard of people using bags of peat in their filters, but that always seemed like a lot more work then its worth to me. you have to replace it often and you have to learn how much you need each time. you can easily drop you ph dangerously too fast using this method.

 

[Mr. F]

Anything that lowers your pH will inherently neutralize KH. Some acids do it faster than others because they are more protic (more available protons) like humic acid in your soil. Peat does it slower.

[Euryth]

Hmm thanks guys for the info, sounds like those soils would be the easiest way to buffer pH then. 

 

I added some GH+ to my 5g to raise the GH from 3 drops to 4 drops in my mixed neo/Caridina tank & lost a Golden Bee overnight. What's the best way to increase the GH without shocking existing shrimp? I gradually added the water in over two almost three hours after I mixed up some tank water in a small Tupperware bowl.

[Mr. F]

Sorry to hear about the loss. Usually I do water changes and GH might raise or lower 1-2 degrees, TDS 20-40 ppm. But very slowly.

[Euryth]

See, that's what I was thinking should be normal. I simply added Publix's purified water to top off my tanks and desired to raise the GH a bit in the 5g. I'm gonna test the water again to see if it really only rose 1 degree in GH, but now I've lost my last remaining adult female Goldenback shrimp in my 2.5g to what looked like molting issues & a female RCS in the 5g.

 

The Goldenback's molt was still stuck to her head/antennae region. Not sure if her death was stress from shifting TDS by 20-30 ppm or delayed effects of dosing Excel too much. The GH in this tank was 5 degrees last time I checked it, so I didn't feel it could be such a major issue. Sheesh, soon as I start doing one thing right, another goes wrong lol..

 

Edit: Lost another RCS adult female. All my juvies are fine, it's my adults that are dying off. Death toll is up to 5 total between the 2.5g & 5g. 

[Mr. F]

See, that's what I was thinking should be normal. I simply added Publix's purified water to top off my tanks and desired to raise the GH a bit in the 5g. I'm gonna test the water again to see if it really only rose 1 degree in GH, but now I've lost my last remaining adult female Goldenback shrimp in my 2.5g to what looked like molting issues & a female RCS in the 5g.

 

The Goldenback's molt was still stuck to her head/antennae region. Not sure if her death was stress from shifting TDS by 20-30 ppm or delayed effects of dosing Excel too much. The GH in this tank was 5 degrees last time I checked it, so I didn't feel it could be such a major issue. Sheesh, soon as I start doing one thing right, another goes wrong lol..

 

Edit: Lost another RCS adult female. All my juvies are fine, it's my adults that are dying off. Death toll is up to 5 total between the 2.5g & 5g. 

It may be a result of a pH shift? Sometimes purified water will be lower in pH because it hasn't been deionized. But for the same reason, it can also be higher in pH. Check the pH of the top off water vs your tank.

[Euryth]

1 hour ago, Mr. F said:

It may be a result of a pH shift? Sometimes purified water will be lower in pH because it hasn't been deionized. But for the same reason, it can also be higher in pH. Check the pH of the top off water vs your tank.

That's what I thought as well, and went to check the pH of the top off water and found it was either 6 or below. On the label it claims to be deionized so what could that mean? When I checked the pH of the 5g tank, it was still either 7.4-7.6 according to the pH and High Range pH drop tests. I'm sure it was probably a combination of a rise in TDS, slight fluctuation in pH and higher GH that probably stressed out the older adults. 

[Mr. F]

That's what I thought as well, and went to check the pH of the top off water and found it was either 6 or below. On the label it claims to be deionized so what could that mean? When I checked the pH of the 5g tank, it was still either 7.4-7.6 according to the pH and High Range pH drop tests. I'm sure it was probably a combination of a rise in TDS, slight fluctuation in pH and higher GH that probably stressed out the older adults. 

That's what it sounds like to me. Sometimes demonization doesn't fully remove protons so DI water it usually a bit acidic. 6 or below is surprising, but not too unusual. The less you change the better, at this point I would just depend small, maybe 10%, water changes with more alkaline water (add baking soda to DI water and test for a dKH of probably 3-4).

[Euryth]

I believe that probably may have been my problem then. I'll try adding enough baking soda to my gallon jugs to get 3-4 dKH to avoid this problem in the future. I think I'll be fine with adding the GH+ when needed from now on. I'll try it next water change and hope it goes more smoothly lol. I was actually hoping to use the purified water to slowly bring my pH down into an acceptable range for my BB Mischlings and find a happy medium for everyone. 

[Mr. F]

1 hour ago, Euryth said:

I believe that probably may have been my problem then. I'll try adding enough baking soda to my gallon jugs to get 3-4 dKH to avoid this problem in the future. I think I'll be fine with adding the GH+ when needed from now on. I'll try it next water change and hope it goes more smoothly lol. I was actually hoping to use the purified water to slowly bring my pH down into an acceptable range for my BB Mischlings and find a happy medium for everyone. 

Indeed. I use GH+ for my neos, but always add a pinch Seachem Alkaline Buffer or baking soda (seem to be the same, I just like to use stuff designed for aquaria, though it is more expensive) to the water and mix thoroughly, usually with an airstone.

If you keep your neos with mischlinge, I've had success with carbon rilis and shadow panda mischlinge at pH 6.8, GH 6-8, KH <1 (this is where the 'pinch' of baking soda comes in), TDS 180-220, using a drop or two of Flourish once or twice a week in my 3g

[Euryth]

13 hours ago, Mr. F said:

Indeed. I use GH+ for my neos, but always add a pinch Seachem Alkaline Buffer or baking soda (seem to be the same, I just like to use stuff designed for aquaria, though it is more expensive) to the water and mix thoroughly, usually with an airstone.

If you keep your neos with mischlinge, I've had success with carbon rilis and shadow panda mischlinge at pH 6.8, GH 6-8, KH <1 (this is where the 'pinch' of baking soda comes in), TDS 180-220, using a drop or two of Flourish once or twice a week in my 3g

I added two scoops of baking soda using a really tiny measuring spoon that's probably 1/8 teaspoon or smaller to the purified water. This brought TDS to 58 ppm & KH to 2-3 dkh. I then added two scoops of the GH+ to bring the GH up to 4 & TDS to 90-100 ppm (didn't measure, just drop tested). No more deaths, but I'd like to get my GH to at least 6. 

 

Should I wait until next week & do a 10% water change to raise it up? Or gradually mix one tiny spoonful of GH+ (20-26 ppm TDS) in tank water every other day until I reach 6? I feed Hikari Crab Bites & Shirakura shrimp ball food everyday in tiny chunks to aid in providing nutrients for molting since my tanks lack a nature biofilm. 

[Mr. F]

I added two scoops of baking soda using a really tiny measuring spoon that's probably 1/8 teaspoon or smaller to the purified water. This brought TDS to 58 ppm & KH to 2-3 dkh. I then added two scoops of the GH+ to bring the GH up to 4 & TDS to 90-100 ppm (didn't measure, just drop tested). No more deaths, but I'd like to get my GH to at least 6. 

 

Should I wait until next week & do a 10% water change to raise it up? Or gradually mix one tiny spoonful of GH+ (20-26 ppm TDS) in tank water every other day until I reach 6? I feed Hikari Crab Bites & Shirakura shrimp ball food everyday in tiny chunks to aid in providing nutrients for molting since my tanks lack a nature biofilm. 

I wouldn't do anything drastic since you're shrimp are stressed already, so do it gradually.
If you wanna get to 6 from 4 you can do 4-5 15% water changes to get there using GH 8 water. Several water changes with GH 6 or 7 water would work too, but in theory (mathematically) you'd never be able to reach 6 using only GH 6 water unless you did a full water reset, so it would take probably 10-11 10% water changes at GH 7 to get you to 6 dGH. Anyway you cut it, it should take the same amount of time, because the closer your new water and tank params are, the larger water changes you can do. Meaning you would have to do 4x 25% water changes with 7 GH water, wait longer in between so you don't remove too many "goodies" from the water column, and it would still probably only be around 5.5 dGH..
I'd go with the 4-5 ~15% water changes over a couple weeks with GH 8 water. Just remember to go slow when adding the water back in (drip it like you're acclimating the entire tank) and don't forget to match the tank's KH in the new water to keep it constant!

[Euryth]

6 minutes ago, Mr. F said:

I wouldn't do anything drastic since you're shrimp are stressed already, so do it gradually.
If you wanna get to 6 from 4 you can do 4-5 15% water changes to get there using GH 8 water. Several water changes with GH 6 or 7 water would work too, but in theory (mathematically) you'd never be able to reach 6 using only GH 6 water unless you did a full water reset, so it would take probably 10-11 10% water changes at GH 7 to get you to 6 dGH. Anyway you cut it, it should take the same amount of time, because the closer your new water and tank params are, the larger water changes you can do. Meaning you would have to do 4x 25% water changes with 7 GH water, wait longer in between so you don't remove too many "goodies" from the water column, and it would still probably only be around 5.5 dGH..
I'd go with the 4-5 ~15% water changes over a couple weeks with GH 8 water. Just remember to go slow when adding the water back in (drip it like you're acclimating the entire tank) and don't forget to match the tank's KH in the new water to keep it constant!

I had to screenshot your message because of how immensely helpful it was lol. Thanks for the guidance @Mr. F. I was worried that they wouldn't survive until then but it appears that they will hang in there. A good sign nothing is terribly wrong is that my RCS babies are steadily growing, darkening & grazing on the algae film growing on the back wall. I'll begin the first GH 8 water change next week Monday & take it slowly from there. I typically use a 22ml+ turkey baster & slowly squeeze water in when acclimating. I repeat this process 1-3x/30-60min depending on how different params are between each body of water. Takes waaaay longer but I acclimated those BB mischlinge from 9 GH to 4 over 2 days with no deaths or stressed behavior. They're all in just in time for my birthday (today ??)!

[Soothing Shrimp]

Have you measured your ph after adding the baking soda?

[Euryth]

@Soothing Shrimp yes, I measured the pH of the pre-made remineralized purified water with two of those small spoonfuls & it measured 7.4-7.6. I added only GH+ to a second gallon & used that to slowly drop the pH to 7.2 so the BB mischlinge wouldn't have to adjust to 7.4-7.6 from a pH of 6. I wonder if SS GH/KH+ or KH+ raises the pH less than baking soda when raising KH?